exclusive interview with Abdullah Bozkurt
“The Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople is in danger” more than ever, the self-exiled journalist Abdullah Bozkurt says in an interview with GreekAmericanNewsAgency.
Two days after the Turkish referendum, and Erdogan’s victory with a slim margin, Turkey enters a new era. Scenarios and analyses over how Turkey’s next day unfolds, with great concerns about the fragile domestic stability, cover large room at the international press. Few days before the referendum, the self-exiled in Sweden journalist, Abdullah Bozkurt in an interview with GreekAmericanNewsAgency says –among others- that no matter whether Erdogan wins or loses the referendum, the situation in the country is going to get worse. He speaks about the relation between Gulen and Erdogan, rejecting the view that Gulen was Erdogan’s mentor. The Turkish journalist explains and analyzes in detail the threat, posed by Erdogan to Greece, especially to Western Thrace and Aegean; He believes that Ecumenical Patriarchate in Constantinople is in danger, he speaks about Turkish president’s links with Islamic radical groups, including ISIL, about the relation between (Erdogan’s) Turkey and EU and the United States, about Eu-Turkey agreement on refugee crisis, about the way international governments and institutions should act against Erdogan. Abdullah Bozkurt expresses the view that Erdogan was aware of the failed coup last July, even though he is always trying to find a scapegoat and put the blame on. The self-exiled journalists makes Erdogan psychological profile, he believes that Erdogan’s fate will be very bad, while describing the challenges Turkey has to face at post-Erdogan era, stating that “on the positive side, it appears now that we have experimented with the Islamist ideology ruining the country, we are gonna make sure that the institutions are strong enough that nothing like this happens again, and make sure that no single man will be able to consolidate so much power in his hands no matter what ideology he or she comes for”.
Q: I see your institute and your effort to promote independent journalism without any involvement of external factors. Is that right?
AK: Right. It’s challenging of course. Covering Turkey from that distance is not easy. You don’t have an access to resources that you used to have and of course…at least we are safe here.
Q: When did you leave Turkey?
AK: It was back in July after the failed coup. I wasn’t actually planning to move out of Turkey I know things were going bad but I thought I can hang it on and still keep my network and keep writing. But, then they start arresting journalists by dozens and on a single day they issued arrest for them, for forty one journalists.
Q: 41?
AK: Forty one on a single day. I think that was on July 25th and then I said, well, that’ s a sign they may come for me as well and the police raided my offices after government seized Zaman, I don’t know if you are aware of it, I created my own company in Ankara. it was a small news service, it was going well actually, we had a group of very professional journalists. It was a small operation, like twelve people but after the failed coup the police raided my offices and it was shut down by the government, as well, so I decided it’ s no longer safe for me to stay in Ankara.
Q: Probably, now you would be in jail, right?
AK: Most likely.
Q: So how do you see things now in Turkey? The referendum is close, we see a very aggressive Erdogan. How do you see the situation in the country?
AK: It is going to get worse and it doesn’t matter whether Erdogan gets approval in the referendum or not, because of what we have seen in national election of 2015 that he lost the majority in the parliament after June 7 election, -if you remember back then- he didn’t want to share the power with the opposition parties. He didn’t want to form a coalition, instead he took the country into another snap polls, on another one and he was able to secure the majority after so many incidents took place in Turkey, including the horrific terrorist attacks, he just dumped the settlement process, the peace process with the Kurdish political movement, and by scaring the Turkish people and intimidating them, he was able to regain the majority. So if, let’s say, there’s gonna be NO in the referendum, it wouldn’t change much. Of course, his legitimacy will be questioned further, but he will stick to the power. He has already been exercising all these powers de facto, even though he is president of Turkey and he has more symbolic powers under the Turkish constitution, because we still have a parliamentary democracy and the prime minister is the most important position, in the governance of the country, because he is the one who controls legitimacy and he is the one who controls the budget. But Erdogan is exercising all these significant powers through loyalists he was able to place in the government. I mean, if he gets a No vote, that would be a good thing I suppose, but it wouldn’t change much, and we will see the same trajectory, because leaving the power for Erdogan is no longer an option. He knows that very well. Because that means he’s gonna be to be jailed, on two significant charges: one is on the corruption, and everybody knows he got involved in billions of dollars in the corruption, that has actually original implication with Iran and Saudi Arabia. So he is not just a corruption confined within the borders of Turkey. He was using the Iranian operatives to fund, to move the money, while Iran is under international sanction. And there is a case now going on in New York City by the federal attorneys, as you may know. It is the same case actually, came back in haunted, but not in Turkey, now is going on in Europe. Another dimension is involved the Saudian part which is one of the countries that are famous Al-Qaeda financing guides, who was on the United States and the United Nations list, and Erdogan was meeting with this guy, while he was on the travel then. So he was actually violating not only the international laws, but also the Turkish laws. Because any UN resolution has an automatic effect on the Turkish legal system, as well. To cut it short, he is facing a significant trouble pushing in corruption. And there is a lot of evidence out there that he actually finance all armed groups in Syria, including Islamic state. So if he gets out of the power, he knows that’s the end of his way. But he is gonna stick to the power no matter what happens even there is a no vote coming out of the referendum. He will be keeping exercising the similar powers.
Q: Even, If he has to force people so they for him, right?
AK: Yeah, of course that’s what happened after the June 7 election back in 2015, when he lost the majority. All of a sudden, the peace process with the KurQ stopped and the killings started taking place and there were so many incidents, he just put the blame on the Islamic state, but Islamic state never claimed for these incidents. And many people suspect including myself that this is actually an operation by the Turkish intelligence or involved elements within the Turkish intelligence just to benefit Erdogan politically.
Q: How do you explain the fact that Erdogan and Gulen were so close. Gulen was his mentor. They were very close. How do you explain the fact that these two people were too close and the last few years they have chosen different paths to move forward.
AB: I think that’s a very good question. I’m a not a spokesperson for Gulen but I can analyze how. Gulen has never been a mentor for Erdogan. That’s for sure, even when Erdogan was mayor of Istanbul back in 1994. Yes they have some communication going on, but they were never close. But then Erdogan set up the party, the ruling Justice And Development Party, back in 2001 and came to power in 2002. I think many people across Turkey and outside of Turkey really believed the idea that an islamist politician along with other many different politicians, different backgrounds can set up an umbrella party, that can actually take Turkey forward, on a democratic path and with more interaction with the European Union, and other European and International Institutions. That included liberals, even social democratic wing in Turkey, moderate conservatives groups, many many groups and Gulen is one of them. And it was actually a success story in the first and the second term of Erdogan. He shared the power with others, I mean he wasn’t going alone like this day, he wasn’t making decision all by himself, he was sharing his power, he was consulting with other interlocutors, but that stopped, I think, not just in December 2013, when the corruption scandal broke but before. I think maybe, we can go all way back to 2010. Then this very controversial charity group IHA sent a flotilla to Israel to break the blocking and Gulen came out very strongly after the killing of the nine Turkish citizens. He said, “you shouldn’t be challenging the established authority and risking the people’s lives, you couldn’t have done this by no cooperating with all the authorities”. I think that was the major point of disagreement between Gulen and Erdogan. But even before like in 2005 I remember that Erdogan’s party submit a very controversial anti-terror law which defined, even people who just exercised their freedom of speech, but may be critical of the government, branded as a terrorist in this draft law, and Gulen came out very strongly against the bill. He said “ you cannot charge people as terrorist”. There are a lot of indications these two guys are actually thinking on different lines. But this is a so called “marriage of convenience” and Gulen and many others believe that with this guy and others in the government, Turkey longed a right trajectory. And this zero problem with the neighbors, I think that was one of the landmark policy, was issued by the government, supported by Gulen and many others and we did actually some, we gained some ground with that. I mean they tried to mend the tensions with Greece, the dog-fights decreased, as well as the tensions with other neighbors. When the Syrian crisis started on 2011 Gulen also took a different position. He said to the government, “look, you need to be able to talk to Assad and the legitimate government there, without funding and arm Jihadist group”. That was the danger he was pointing out and he turned out to know from the hindsight, Gulen was worried, and look what kind of mess you ended up in Syria now. Not only in Syria but in Turkey there are many groups now, many many Jihadist groups. Young people attracted to this radical ideology, so I mean they have never been very close in the first place. It was just a support on the issue basis.
Q: Doing the devil’s advocate, does Erdogan fear whether there are some plans Turkey to be cut into pieces and there is a plan for Turkey to be smaller so, he thinks that the best idea is to have some aggressive plans, probably against Greece and because he knows that there is cooperation with Albania too?
AB: That is a very good question. I think Erdogan is really concerned of dismembering of Turkey. Since you are coming from the Ottoman Empire, I mean, commanding a large geography and you ended up with the Turkey now, after the World War One, there is this conspiracy lingering fear among the Turkish society of “you may have to give up more territory”. So that is a fear I mean -whether justified or not- many people feel that way and Erdogan is tackling on these fears to create more intimidation campaign and to polarize this society, so he can consolidate his supporters in his own quarter. When you tell people that you know the western countries, you know the Pope, Ecumenical Patriarch all these guys are trying to cut pieces out of Turkey and people, -you know, Turkish people are very much nationalistic- flag around Erdogan. So that is the tactic, he is using. But I don’ t think, he really believes in that theory, but on the narrative basis he plays with that. And this is how he feeds this nationalistic frenzy in Turkey. That is way he was able to pick up votes in elections. But having said that, Erdogan is sort of positioning himself as a leader of all Muslims. Not just Turkish Muslims, but across the world. You can see that from the speeches he has been delivering he always mention different parts of the world, Albania, Bosnia, Gaza, Egypt, all the way to Myanmar so he is short of trying to position himself, as an unofficial caliph, so he can mobilize these people. And the main motivation behind that is actually that Erdogan finQ himself in a difficult position, he can tap into this group and he can mobilize them. And he has done that in the past. Ιn many instances we can see the Turkish government’s hands in mobilizing the protest movement, even in New York City. There areAlbayrak’s emails leaks, his son in law, Berat Albayrak, as you know last year there is a leak came out of his email. And we learn from this email that the protest against the Egyptian Consulate in New York City, was actually organized by the Erdogan’s operatives in New York City. And the same goes to in many countries in Balkans right after the problem with the Dutch government, we have seen Turk protest taking place in Bosnia, in Sarajevo, and that was all organized by Erdogan and actually the Turkish ambassador attended in one of them. So, he is not really sincere in resolving the complaints and the grievances or the problems that these minority groups are facing in different parts in world. He is just using and abusing fear of pressure or their problems to increase their leverage, and that is of course very very dangerous, because for that, you need to keep financing, funding proxy groups, you need to train your intelligence agency, all the government agencies to keep track with these guys and we know, for example, in Kosovo the Turkish development agency TIKA has funded Jihadist groups in Kosovo and that created a lot of problems, between the Kosovo’s government and the Turkish government. So that is a danger, and many people, unfortunately, in the Turkish government from Islamist background really believe in this idea, and they think all the world is against them, all the Christian and the Jewish, you know the communities, completely mobilized against Turkey, so they are using this xenophobic, anti-christian, anti-Jewish narrative very very strongly even in the pro government media as well. That’s one of the reasons actually he goes against Gulen, because Gulen has been one of the leading advocates of interfaith dialogue, interculture dialogue, so that is a threat to the narrative we hear from Erdogan. So, he needs to discredit this guy and defame, so he can project this narrative to the Turkish public opinion.
Q: Erdogan has announced that two days before the referendum which in Christian world is the Good Friday, will go to Agia Sofia in Istanbul to pray. Do you think that he can do that?
AB: Well he can do that, we have seen that played out before in Erdogan’s media and there are many people close to Erdogan they are actually entertained by the idea of opening of Agia Sofia as a mosque, and as you know they opened a part of the Agia Sofia to Friday prays already. So, there is a Friday’s pray going on in one part of Agia Sofia, besides the museum part. So, that shows that Erdogan is very much desperate. He needs this kind of symbolic gestures to be able to mobilize people, to be able to pick up more votes and to be able to project himself as the leader of the all Muslims. And we can see these indications from different points. Not only Agia Sofia and from the speeches he has been delivering, he has all these mentions the places from Gaza, Kairo, Mekka, Medina, Damascus and many other places, that play important role for the mazes. And he has been building mosques across the world, huge mosques with the funQ of the Turkish government. So that brings a short of credibility, religious credibility for him as you know he has been pushing a building in Athens for same time, that was agreed on a bilateral level, but you know, even in Cuba he made up a story. He said that was a mosque in Cuba a long long time ago and that issue came of when during his visit to Cuba, but that didn’t realize, but he set a bond in Washington, actually in Maryland close to Washington. So, he has been building this framework of building a huge mosque, so he can claim a title of the Caliphate. Agia Sofia of course, is very symbolic place and he may do that before or after the referendum , because that issue is keep burning all the time in the pro Erdogan media, especially, is on these media always entertain that idea.
Q: Do you think that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in danger?
ΑB: I think, so, I mean because when you hear the president the other day, saying, actually showing a picture of the Pope, meeting with all the European Union leaders… As you know they came together in Rome to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the European Union, establishment of the Rome Treaty. And he was saying “this is a proof of the Crusaders against Turkey”. All these European leaders posing with the Pope which is, you know, very innocent picture, they were just marking the 60th Anniversary of the Rome Treaty, but he turned it upside down, and he was telling in the public rallies attended by thousands of people “look these are the enemies of Turkey, they are attacking to Turkey, and the picture is a proof of that”. And the same goes with the Ecumenical Patriarch in pro Erdogan media. We have seen a similar campaign, a hateful narrative, targeting specifically the Ecumenical Patriarchate. When you hear this kind of very hateful, very divisive narrative, all way from the top leadership of Turkey, of course, I mean anybody can take the matters in his own hands on the street, and not just the leaders of the religious minority groups, but also foreigners, or just a tourist. Travelers if they are not Turks, they may be attacked. I think we have seen already several cases, there were some physical attacks against the people on the street. I remember that Erdogan bashed China and raises Chinese Muslim issue, “we good Turks”. Actually some of the people on the street were mistaking pointing tourists, as Chinese, and they attacked these guys. And there are many similar examples, we can cite. This is very very dangerous. He is not just a rhetoric, because when the top leadership talks about this kind of stuff, then this has a huge impact on the minQ of the people on the street. So, of course, I mean anybody is who is seen as an enemy under the description of Erdogan, is under danger of course.
Q: So you think Erdogan is more dangerous, if he wins the referendum or if he loses the referendum?
AΒ: He will be more dangerous, of course, because he will be able to consolidate all these powers officially. There will be, I mean, there is no checks and balances anyway in the system, but this, the current system is sort of slowing down. And Erdogan doesn’t want that. He want everything down in rush. He gives order, then, that should be implemented right away. But, now, although he is doing that to his loyalists, there are series of procedures that he needs to follow. If the referendum resulted into the YES vote, he will be able to do everything very quickly. He will be able to control the judiciary completely. So, he will become emboldened, he’ll become more daring, of course, and he must saying that already in the public rallies, I mean, after the April 16th things will never be the same for Turkey with respect to relation with the West.
Q: Do you think that because of the fact that Erdogan knows it is decided a Kurdish state to be established (and this is something that the US want), he’s able to do something with Thrace in Greece or Aegean island? You think that an aggressive movement could balance in a way…
AK: Well I’m not sure that those two issues are linked to each other. I think they have separate issues, I mean, establishing a Kurdish state in the north of Syria, of course, that raise concern on the part of Turkey’s national security or establishing a possible Kurdish state curving piece out of the southeastern part of Turkey, that is, of course, goes against the Turkish national interest. That’s not really linked to what we see on the front with Greece. Raising tension with Greece has more to do with raising nationalist sentiment in Turkey before or after the referendum, in some cases is just to pick up more votes in other cases just to distract the Turkish public from discussing economic problems, or other social and educational problems that really matters to them on the everyday lives. So, it’s more like distraction for Erdogan to play with Greece. He raise the tension deliberately either in the western Thrace or in Aegean, you know islands and islands. So that’s, I think, is a more like a separate issue. The only link I can see, is that Erdogan, after the Russian and American movements on the ground, has nowhere to go in Syria. Actually few days ago, the Turkish military announced they are wrapped up the military operation in Syria, but they say they will remain engaged. So that shows, there is a limit to what he can deal with the Syrian front. And the same goes for the Iraq, as well. So, that may free Erdogan’s hand to do what he is planning to do with respect to Greece. Because he isn’t much preoccupied on the Syrian front, now he can turn the other way round and focus on Greece.
Q: Doing what?
AK: Well he could do several things. As we have seen back in 2003, the secret plans revealed, you know, they were trying to shot down the Turkish F16, and blame on the Greek government and some nasty stuff on the western Thrace. And he could do that as well I mean, just to create a provocation either on the air with the fighter planes or on the sea with the Turkish navy, because as you know the Turkish army now, after this staged coup by Erdogan on July 15th they purged all the pro-NATO, prowestern officers from the senior position. So he has pretty much control on the Turkish military now. So he can, if he wants he can escalate the tension very easily, with a simple provocation on the air or over the Aegean or set up a pause in the western Thrace.
Q: days ago at your twitter account you wrote about intelligence agents, operating in western Thrace. Do you believe that this is linked with the fire at the historical mosque Vagiatzit. Do you think these two issues are connected?
AK: I don’t have any information to suggest that there is a link between these two. The information I got from 2 reliable sources I have been working with for some time, was more like a general reference point, it was not specific intelligence but even that general reference, I think a cause for a worry. And that’s why I posted that message. If they increase a number of operatives in Greece, that means they are planning to do something about that. And we have seen how they played out at the Bulgarian election. The Turkish intelligence have been shuttling a lot of voters of the Turkish origin, and this created a lot of trouble between the Bulgarian government and the Turkish government. So now that the election is over they may have turned their attention to Greece, which they have already increased a number of operatives. I was suggesting that we need to remain watchful of what they are doing, because this government is kind of isolated. The Turkish government is now desperate. You can see that at the relation with the American government, with the EU, with Russia. Russia is very much concerned of Erdogan islamist clandestine operation with the Tsetsenan Muslims coming to Turkey, going to Syria to fight against Assad. So, there is a huge risk they see from Moscow. And also with the Chinese. The Beijing has been raising all these Chinese Ouglou Muslims who are coming to Turkey. Actually, the Turkish intelligence provides them with passports, funding them, so they come to Turkey and from Turkey to Syria. The number of young jihadists actually, who are going to Syria as foreign fighters is from China, not from Europe or from Russia. It is China. So, Chinese are not outspoken on this issue, but I know from my sources that they have been raising this issues since 2011. But Erdogan doesn’t respond. The same operation is going on. That shows the Turkish government, under the leadership of Erdogan is pretty much isolated and they are desperate to make their cases. And the only card, the only leverage they have, is a spoiler card. So, you can move your proxies, you can do some nasty stuff in different parts of the world, so people like IRA, I mean IRA has been using this nasty acting proxies in different parts of the world, so he can raise the bargaining power, when it comes to the negotiating table. I think Erdogan is doing exactly the same, he is using the same proxies to be able to raise his bargaining power and he is also kind of using the migrant now, with respect to Greece and other Balkan countries to pressure the European Union, to come to terms and to strike a bargain with them. So that is a huge concern if the Turkish government is willing to pick up Fetulah Gulen, in a covered operation out of the United States soil as it was revealed by wall street journal the other day. The Turkish foreign minister had secretly discussed it how to run this covered operation. If they dare to do that on the United States soil, then I think they can do anything in other countries. So that is something that we need to be very very vigilant.
Q: I would like to ask you few months ago the European Union signed an agreement with Turkey regarding the refugee crisis, which for Greece is a huge problem. The last few days if not weeks we have more refugees coming. You think that the refugee problem is a tool for Erdogan to cause a bigger problem to Greece?
AΒ: Yes, he has said that on several occasion. If he wants to weaponize these poor migrants to put a pressure on the European Union so he can get what he wants, not just a financial aid but also raising his international profile by meeting with the European leaders. He wants a spotlight and he wants to have a good engagement with them. But I think that was a bad deal from the start because if you trust this kind of leverage you expose yourself to blackmail by Erdogan. And you are right; I mean they can easily mobilize these people. They can create enough incentives to people, not just from Turkey but from different countries like Myanmar, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, they can come in to Turkey and from Turkey they can push them into the European side mostly from the Greece of course. And he has all the networks in place, these smuggling networks, they cannot operate without the blessing or without approval of the Turkish intelligence. If they really wanna crack them down, they can easily do so and they actually have shown they can do that in the past. Now they can let them do what they want and they can actually use some clandestine operation and slash slice from the Turkish government to finance this kind of operation. But I think the most important tool against them is to lodge a legal challenge against Erdogan. Because that’s a crime, according to the international law. Abusing the migrants, pushing them to the other side of the borders, that’s a crime. And Erdogan is very much skilled of the legal challenges and we have seen that on a several occasions. That why he turned the Turkish judiciary upside down after the corruption investigation and dismissed thousand of the judges and the prosecutors. He is very much concerned with the case going on in New York City. He was quite angry, when the Italian prosecutor started investigation for money laundering against his son in Italy, and his son Bilal had to rush out of Italy in a hurry. So this kind of challenges I think is the most important leverage that the European governments have against Erdogan. So he’s terrified of the legal cases. That’s one way you can counter what he is planning to do with the migrant issue. But I thing with the migrants of course, it is very much easier to plant operatives among the migrants. I suspect migrants coming from Turkey some of whom maybe are covered deep embedded operatives and some of them may be from radical groups, like Islamic State and other jihadists groups.
Q: few days are left until the referendum. Do you think that these days will be used by Erdgogan if he feels insecure, to create incidents inside and outside Turkey so he keeps his image or he raises voters’ preference for him?
AB: Absolutely. I am very much concerned about that prospect. I mean, I’m expecting something either in Turkey or within the neighborhood of Turkey.
Q: Including Greece?
AK: Including Greece, yes. Something very dramatic. We are not sure of course how reliable is the polling data we have seen in the Turkish media. But less as we can put an argument let’s say that is right, and it’s almost 50-50. It’s a very slim margin. So he neeQ to have very comfortable margin to make sure that he’ll get what he wants in the referendum and for that he neeQ to have a short of crisis either in Turkey or outside of Turkey to be able to raise his nationalist fever so he can be able to pick up more votes. The nationalist party is supporting Erdogan in this referendum but the base is not very much convinced. I think 80% of the smaller nationalist parties say they are not going to vote for Erdogan. So he needs to convince these people and for that I think he needs some short of crisis probably a false flag operation in Turkey or outside of Turkey. With the crisis with the Dutch government, he was able to pick up only 2% at this point. So that’s not enough. So he needs something bigger. And many people in Turkey and outside of Turkey are talking about this issue and they were speculating what could happen. It’s very very critical, but as I said even after the referendum we are going to see this concern not going away. Because, the Turkish economy is under difficulties, the unemployment is rising, the external debt is on the rise and many people are feeling the pinch of economic difficulties on their daily lives. So, even after the referendum, Erdogan is gonna play with these issues, just to create a distraction. So, people don’t talk about economic difficulties, or other social, educational difficulties. It’s very classical authoritarian regime that we see in other part of the world. You always find a scapegoat, you create an intentional crisis, so you can benefit out of it.
Q: So you believe that when you told about those intelligence agents that are in the western Thrace, do you think that those people are here to do something, to create something, to provoke something, to terrorize people who are devoted to Gulen?
AK: Well I think they have been doing this already, profiling and harassing the critics outside of Turkey, not only in Greece but also in other parts of the world, including Sweden. Μany European governments actually have launched a criminal investigation into this profiling and harassment activities targeting not just members of the Gulen movement but also members of the Kurdish political movement, some of the liberals and the left wing critics. And these are illegal and unlawful activities, under the world’s government laws, and even under the Turkish Constitution, you can’t do this. There is no rule for law in Turkey but yes, they can terrorize, they can create some false flags with respect to these groups and especially, the members of the Gulen movement of course is the number one enemy of the long list of enemies by Erdogan. So they may be planning some nasty stuff against this group in Greece and in other parts of the world. Right after I posted that tweet, I think 2-3 days later, a guy named Metin Kulunk, posted a series of tweet messages with respect to Greece. This guy, Metin Kulunk, is very very close guide to Erdogan. He is the one actually who set up all this clandestine network especially among the Turkish youngsters, and the Muslim youth groups in Europe, in Germany, in Austria, basically and other parts of Europe. And this guy, in his tweets was saying, “well, Turkey shouldn’t have left the Western Thrace to Greece while its population is 80% of Muslims” and all of a sudden he said «all these islands on the rock formation in the Aegean which are not covered by the Lausanne Treaty, as you know they said it out they are disputed and the negotiations are going on between the Greece government and the Turkish government and we know the official position of the Turkish government for many years. All of a sudden this guy was saying on the tweet message all these islands and isles and the rock formation belong to Turkey. So he has been taking a completely different position and this is not a lower key figure, I mean from this man who is very very close to president Erdogan and who is running a clandestine operation in Europe. That means something is going on. And that is of course increase our worries, with respect to our neighbors, with respect to Turkish national security. I frankly believe that all those nasty stuff they are planning abroad is against the Turkish national interest first and foremost, before anything else.
Q: so, Turkey, is very far from being part of the European Union, right? At least, for now…
AK: I think, so. I mean we are far away from Copenhagen criteria, which are required even to start an accession talks, as you know. I don’t think Erdogan is really interested to become a member of the European Union.
Q: Even though he wants to be benefited from that relation?
AB: Yes, he wants to benefit economically but he doesn’t like to have any political or diplomatic relation because that means that there is gonna be criticism to what he does… (jailing journalists, cracking down all political groups, seizing private properties). He doesn’t want all these. And he said it in a public rally the other day. He said «we don’t want to break up with the EU, we are going to keep trading but we are going to reevaluate the relation with the EU». So he wants the best of it without giving anything on political level. But fortunately, the EU has quite a leverage economically on Turkey, 50% of the Turkish exports are going to the EU, almost 80-85% of the foreign investments are coming from the EU, and many foreign tourists actually, are coming from the European Union countries.
Q: In western Thrace, there is a very quiet Muslim community there. Almost 80% of the population are Muslims. And most of them are close to Gulen movement. So could operations organized by those intelligence agents create -besides intimidation- incidents that can challenge more harsh situations? Probably looking at the autonomy of Western Thrace?
AK: Several years ago from now, the Turkish intelligence contracted a killer, an assassin and sent him to Paris to kill 3 young Kurdish women political activists, in the heart of Paris. And that was actually documented with the leaks coming out of Turkey. That means they could do similar things in other parts of Europe if they want to. , especially when there are sizable Turkish and Muslim communities, in different parts of Europe, it is very much easy to blend in and to run this operation and that is a great concern -I think- on the parts of many many European governments. And we just published, last month, a report with the case of Netherlands, a sort of exposing Erdogan’s long arms, how they harass critics, and opponents, as a case study we picked up on the Gulen movement. And there were some physical attacks on individuals and there were also arson attacks, trying to torch the buildings, which were leased by the people close to Gulen movement. And these are all documented and covered by the Dutch media. And the same danger exists of course in Greece and other European countries. And Erdogan was able to control many groups, proxy groups in these communities unfortunately, and all this false narrative that Turkey is growing and is a very very powerful country is really believed unfortunately by many people from expelled communities. I mean that they really think that Turkey can send behind them, against the government, against most governments where they have been working and living for many years. And Erdogan is exploiting this family linkages, you know, linkages back to their homeland. And they were able to penetrate, they were able to set up shell companies and fake foundation and association to be able to make incursion into these countries. And you need to have a counter measures, so you need to be able to provide security and safety for these people against this type of harassment and intimidation. So, responsible for that is the Greek government in the Greece case and other governments in the world’s communities.
Q: Erdogan has jailed the most capable military personnel. If Turkey is called for any reason to act in international level, maybe in Greece, how can these two things operationally work? There are a number of military personnel in jail, and Erdogan decides to operate in a military level outside of Turkey how can he do that?
AΒ: He could do that pretty easily because the Turkish intervention into Syria, the operation Euphrates, that was after the failed coup d’etat, cause before that Erdogan had a difficult time to convince the Turkish military leaders to make an incursion into Syria without working out the details with the American, the Russian governments. But after the failed coup d’etat he was able to purge so many of pro NATO officers, very capable military officers from the force and brought loyalists. The real danger here is that he was able to bring islamist paramilitary forces, working alongside with the Turkish military. There is a company called Sadat, it is a paramilitary force, set up and controlled by Erdogan himself. The leader of this group is now the chief advisor to president Erdogan. He is a former General last name Kantraverdi, and he is not just connected to the Turkish military, but also to paramilitary forces that were set up specifically for very specific operations. So this is a real danger. If he plans to do something with respect to Greece he can do that with this loyalist and this islamist guys he’s planted within the Turkish military and that is the reason why Erdogan is now insisting on suspension of the NATO monitoring force in the Aegean. After the migrant deal between Germany, the Greek government and the Turkish government, they jointly ask NATO to set up a mission in Aegean to monitor these migrant movements. But all of a sudden now, Turkey has been asking NATO to suspend this operation, although it has agreed to it 2 years ago and now it wants that to be suspended. That means Erdogan doesn’t want anyone watching what he is planning to do in Aegean. So that is very crucial. You need to keep that mission alive and thank God in the last session of the Defense Ministers in Brussels in NATO, that idea, proposed by the Turkish minister, it was rejected by the NATO. So that mission need to be operational, it’s important because Greece needs an international coalition to be able to neutralize Erdogan’s threats against Greece and other countries.
Q: From what you said so far I understand that there is a real cooperation between Erdogan’s people and those who hold the Islamic state. Is that right?
AK: We have seen that in January 2014 there was a mass shipment of arms exposed in the Turkish media. It was heavy weaponry that was mostly used by the Islamic state and Japan MUSLAM, now they changed their name of course. I think Erdogan has been working with all sort of radical Islamic groups in Syria -not only single one- because anybody who is willing to take up arms against Assad, is welcomed by Erdogan, since 2011. They have picking up the fighters from India, bringing them all from India to Turkey and from Turkey to Syria. So anybody who is willing to fight against Assad, is welcomed by Turkey, and that includes Islamic State as well. I mean if you kept so many cases going on in turkey in the judicial system against Islamic state militants, almost all of them got released without any conviction without in some cases even without trial and major leading figures who are suspected for the Islamic State or Japan MUSLAM are freely operating in Turkey and freely preaching in Turkey when so many critical journalists are kept behind bars. So I mean there are so many indications suggesting that the Turkish government and president Erdogan is actually involved in this nasty jihadist group and they are so many. And when something very bad happens –and Islamic State has the blame for that -, all of a sudden the government comes out with a media ban. It says you can’t write about this investigation, you can’t write about these suicide attacks, what does it tell you? If you try to suppress the information, the coverage of the Islamic State attacks in Turkey that means you try to protect the Islamic State. And so many motions submitted to the Turkish parliament by the opposition parties to investigate Islamic State network in Turkey and other jihadist networks in Turkey, I think maybe almost a dozen different motions in different times, they were submitted to the parliament and all of them without any exception were rejected by Erdogan. Why doesn’t he want any investigation in the parliament, leaving dangerous radical bunch threatening Turkish national security and Turkish citizens. But the government doesn’t want any investigation, it doesn’t want the media writing about that and anybody who exposed the Turkish government’s linkages to these groups, they are being charged under the terrorism laws and they are put behind jails. As of today, 236 journalists are behind bars. If you look at the profile of these journalists -some of them I know personally-, they wrote in the press extensively on the Turkish government and Edogan’s links to these radical groups. So it’s not that randomly Erdogan is targeting journalists. They target specific journalists who exposed this kind of linkages to the Turkish media and the world media. Erdogan wants them to (be) locked up so they cannot write.
Q: You spoke about the journalists. Which is the fate of these journalists now? Are the treated well? Are they in danger? Will they go to the court?
AK: No, they don’t have any remedies under the Turkish laws. The Turkish juridical system is pretty much controlled by Erdogan personally. There is no rule of law, there is no protection. They cannot even hire a lawyer to represent them in some cases because so many lawyers there are also jailed in Turkey. I think the last number is 400 lawyers, even the president of the bar association. They were just locked up by Erdogan. So many many lawyers in Turkey are very much afraid of representing critical journalists in the court cases. And that is a challenge of course. Another concern is they don’t have any access to the books, newspapers, TV. They are not provided even a paper to write their thoughts, or whatever they want to write and in some cases they are being tortured. I know for example several cases where journalists got ill and they needed a medication, but they don’t take them to the hospital so they are not provided their medication in time. So there are significant concerns for these journalists. Days ago, some journalists were released by the court, after serving 8 months in jail and they were supposed to get released but another investigation being under way, so even before they were out of the gates of the prison, they were locked up again. Not a single one was able to get free even though there was a court order. So that shows how Erdogan manipulates the judiciary and abuses the criminal justice system to prosecute and to punish critical and independent journalists. Because the information is very much challenging to his regime and affects the narrative and he wants to keep this false narrative alive and all these real effects and the truth is becoming a huge threat to his narrative.
Q: You are the head of an organization, writing about what is going on in Turkey. And you have the intelligence, coming out from Turkey, to do so. Do you have the support of international organizations or are you in contact with organizations or institutions in order to tackle the situation in Turkey?
AK: You are absolutely right. I am trying my best to link up with other advocacy or monitory groups to raise this issue on an international platform, and I am trying to pressure the governments in Europe to face Erdogan forcefully, especially in the Council of Europe and the European Union. As you know there is a discussion, coming up in the Council of Europe at the end of this month. They are going to decide whether Turkey is going to be placed under the formal monitoring mechanism and I am hoping the Greek delegation will support that motion. We need not to just name Erdogan for what he does in Turkey -this mass prosecution- but also there is a need to be some consequences to his actions. He has to pay a price for that. But unfortunately for many years the European governments just appeal Erdogan in the name of engagement. They say we need to engage, we need to keep the channels of communication open, so we can make a difference but we haven’t see any difference made so far, things actually went from bad to worse. It got more escalated. So, that means that engagement they are trying to sell to the European public is not working so we need to say something else. We need to have policy actions in place to make sure that Erdogan understands the message, changes his behavior. He has to realize he is not going to be able to get away with that. So we need to have real policy actions with respect to Turkey. I am not advocating a blanket sanction, a compressive pressure, in terms of economic sanctions on Turkey. You just need to target these key operatives of Erdogan; the key business people who are supporting and sustaining his regime. If you target these people, then the whole system is going to collapse. I mean Erdogan is sustaining his regime with a group of people on the political level, on the business level, and the media level. So if you target these small inner circles -so to speak- and launch -for example- a legal case against them, then they will start distance themselves from Erdogan. So they will realize the huge prize need to be paid, if they involve in Erdogan’s prosecution. I think that is the real leverage European governments and many others have against Turkey but we haven’t seen that card played out so far.
Q: Do you believe that Erdogan knew about the failed coup and let it happen or he didn’t and he just faced it out?
AK: Absolutely he was aware of the way it was, it was very much controlled, and this wasn’t a real coup in terms of what we have seen in the past and it was just staged by Erdogan in order to set up his critics for a mass prosecution. Many people who are supposedly involved in this failed coup, they had no idea, they were just summoned by their superiors and in some cases they thought they were actually responding to a terrorist incident. I think the most important evidence we have is Erdogan immediately issued a gag order on the media not to write about the investigation in the coup, I mean the parliamentary investigation needed the intelligence chief and the chief of staff of Erdogan they did not go there to respond and be questioned from the opposition lawmakers while they were investigating the coup investigation. And I think nobody is buying that argument that they told, and the German intelligence said it openly, American the Chair of the House intelligence committee said that he hasn’t seen any single evidence that Gulen is behind it, so there are so many indications that this is very much controlled by Erdogan himself.
Q: In the very beginning Erdogan was very critical on the United States saying that they set up the coup. As the time passed by, he was not that critical. Do you believe that Erdogan has reached a deal with the United States so it extradites Gulen? Do you think that this kind of game is played out?
AK: I don’t see any evidence, any reason why the United States should turn over Gulen to Erdogan. First and foremost, this is not up to the American government, it is going to be decided by the American judiciary, and the judiciary and the judges have to assess on the evidence that are going to be presented to them. And there is no evidence. So even the American government was to extradite him, it would be very very difficult. It’s going to be huge legal challenge that they don’t want to engage in that of course. But Erdogan blaming the United States for creating the coup, it is more likely a scapegoating. We have seen the same narrative right after the corruption expose in 2013, Erdogan blamed American government, and his media actually put American ambassador’s picture on the front page, on the same day, five different daily papers controlled by Erdogan, blamed the American ambassador. But after Americans got angry and in private communication they told Erdogan “this is not acceptable”, that they are not going to be tolerated this type of targeting of the American government, of American citizens, cause that could put lives of the American citizens in danger. I think they really issued a harsh warning and they probably told him there was going to be consequences if he does not go along with this. So they dropped the act right away and immediately turned to Gulen as a scapegoat. And similar things happened after the failed coup. There were a lot of narrative of Turkish papers pointing the fingers to the United States, but the United States I think on private communication also issued political harsh warnings. And Erdogan got the message. But now, it went beyond Gulen, he started blaming Germany for the failed coup. Because the German intelligence Chief had told that there is no evidence and we don’t think that Gulen is behind it. They are scapegoating Gemany now. So, this is a constant shifting or changing the narrative but never taking any incompatibility whatsoever, for any wrong doings in the government. This is very classical, text book case, for any authoritarian government. Nobody believes in this anymore.
Q: What about the relation between Turkey and the United States? Donald Trump is not Obama. How do you think that this bilateral relationship can develop?
AK: I think that as long as Erdogan is seizing the power, the relation is not going to go back to the level that we used to see before, because Erdogan is a spoiler, troublemaker, he doesn’t act as a rational actor, as a statesman, he strikes a deal but he does something else behind their back. That’s true with the United States and that’s also true for many partners and allies of the Turkish government. I mentioned the Chinese before, he agreed with the Chinese during a visit in Beijing to crack all this jihadist network coming from China, but he didn’t do that. So, Erdogan is not behaving rationally under the international law. Obama -I think-, has been engaging with Erdogan some time hoping that he eventually come to the right position. That didn’t happen. So I think that was a mistake on the part of Obama Administration. I know that Pentagon and American military warned Obama Administration many times. They said as long as Erdogan is in the power it would be very very difficult for them to beat Islamic State and other jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq. Because the logistical network is there, the support is there, sometimes very secretly, so as long as the safe actor is supporting these groups, it would be a mission impossible to completely destroy Islamic State or other jihadist groups. But unfortunately, I think Obama Administration didn’t really take deep concern coming from the American military and the Pentagon into account. Now that Trump Administration is in place which is more hawkish Administration, and Pentagon may get what it wants, and this means that the relation is going to get very bad for Turkey. We have already seen, when Americans are going along with the Kurdish fighters in Northern Syria, despite the objection of Turkey that shows that the relation between them is very very bad now. But I don’t think that the American government really wants antagonize Erdogan to the fullest extent by taking very strong position. They still keep engaging and working on different issues. They want to keep Turkey on their side, while Erdogan is in power, but I don’t think that the relation is good as it was before.
Q: Which do you think will be Erdogan’s fate? I am not asking you to predict but which is the sense you have?
AK: Like any dictator that we have seen in different parts of the world. Ηis fate is gonna be very bad I suppose. Since the corruption investigation back in December 2013, he has been fighting to prolong his political career. He cannot sustain the regime that he has built for 2 reasons: Economically, it is very very difficult to support this kind of a sliding back, because Turkish economy is very much depended on trade and investment. As long as Erdogan is in power and with the policies he has been implementing, nobody is going to be investing in Turkey, especially for the long term investors. So that’s out of the picture. And forget about the foreign investors. There are so many Turkish businessmen and investors that are moving out of Turkey, because they are concerned that their investments in Turkey are not safe anymore. As you know there are so many Turkish businessmen that their assets were seized by the government on the dropped up charges, many of them linked on the Gulen movement. So they are escaping Turkey. And if you have a bad relation with European partners, that means that you will not be able to export a lot of products, that you used to export. So you export rate is going to go down. That means that Erdogan’s regime is not gonna be able to survive, if they keep these policies in place. And the second reason that I believe that Erdogan is not going to stay in power for too long, is because Turkish society is very diverse. You can keep putting a lot of pressure, you can jail a lot of people, but the Turkish society is very diverse and eventually at some point there is gonna be a rapture. There is gonna be a rebellion, like we have seen in the Gezi Park protest in summer 2013. And Erdogan is very much afraid of that prospect. Since socially and economically you can’t sustain this regime especially when you get isolated from the rest of the world, diplomatically and politically it would be mission impossible for Erdogan to be able to keep it up. So Erdogan knows that and that’s why he is disposing the Turkish institutions, he is trying to transform everything into his tool included the Turkish intelligence agency. Now it’s turned into a private detective agency for Erdogan rather than an Agency that is working for the interest of Turkey. So that means he is not building anything but rather he is destroying everything that Turkey has accomplished over the decades. So I think that he is all ended up but he just doesn’t realize it.
Q: Concluding our discussion, we would like to ask you: what do you believe about the person Erdogan? He is a dangerous guy, he is mad, he is just an ambitious guy, or he is a visionist of the old Ottoman Empire?
AK: Well actually I wrote about this psychological profile of Erdogan. Yes, he is very ambitious guy. And he really believes in this vision, that one day he will become the leader of the whole Muslim world. And you can see that when the Syrian crisis started in 2011 with all the Arab revolutions, he was financing actually the Muslim Brotherhood in Tunisia, in Libya, in Egypt and other places. So he actually believed that one day all these Muslim countries are going to be ruled by the people close to him, so he would be able to control all these countries. He really believed that stuff, I think. And secondly, he doesn’t have any real advisor around him. Everybody is a yesman whatever he says they accept that they actually feed back to him maybe in a much more detailed way. Αfter the corruption investigation that incriminated himself and his family members, he has also become a very terrified personality. He is very much suspicious of everybody and anybody around him and he thinks they are gonna kill him, they are gonna get him or they are gonna drag him to the court. Not just within Turkey but even to the international criminal court. So, we are looking for a person who is very much terrified but at the same time he is also very ambitious. There is a real disturbance in a psychological level. Sometimes he really believes the western countries conspiracy coming to Turkey, curving out of pieces all over. You can sense this fear factor, when the leaked came out from the corruption case, he was talking to his son how to stash all that hide money, while the investigation is still going out he was speaking very very slow, very lightly, so you can feel the fear factor in his voice. If you look at his speeches today and the facial gestures, he is also a very angry man. Because he didn’t get what he want, he wanted a huge international profile, a respectable position, international landscape spotlight, he didn’t get that. And whatever he does, all this nasty stuff, false flag operations, he is slugging to make his case with Turkish public opinion and the world public opinion. So that’s why he becomes very angry, very angry facial gestures you can see when you watch him on the television. At some level he is also disconnected with the reality. You can see that in many examples. For example in the last case we mentioned with the pope posing with all the European leaders on the anniversary of the 60 years of the Rome Treaty. If he reads he must know this is an innocent picture it’s just a summit, a commemoration event, but he’s making a huge conclusion out of these pictures. That this is a conspiracy, the Pope, the Vatican is pulling the strings they are targeting Turkey, all these are the Crusaders aligns… So that shows, there are so many examples of this, that shows his disconnection with the real world as well. So that means he is very dangerous. So he can do anything and everything.
Q: so how could you describe the post- Erdogan era?
AK: I think that the post Erdogan era will need a lot of time to repair the damage that Erdgoan and his associates have done to Turkey. I think the first and foremost challenge is how to deal with so many young people in Turkey that were very much radicalized. I am not just talking about the jihadist ideas, but a lot of people, a lot of young people in Turkey believe in this false conspiracy, this false narrative, this anti-western, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish narrative. So a lot of rehabilitation need to be done. And you need to invest a lot to education, to be able to make sure that the next generation in Turkey is not gonna be infected by this kind of false ideologies. I think this is gonna be a significant challenge for Turkey in the post Erdogan era. And a lot has to be done to repair the ties with the Turkish partners and allies of course, it’s gonna be another challenge. And economy is gonna be devastated of course in the meantime, so you need to repair the economy. I think we are gonna need a long time to repair the damage done by Erdogan, from politics to education from social field and to the religious field. This gonna be a battle but on the positive side it appears now that we have experimented with the Islamist ideology ruining the country, We are gonna make sure that the institutions are strong enough to sustain this kind of intervention in the future, that nothing like this happens again, and make sure that no single man will be able to consolidate so much power in his hands no matter what ideology he or she comes for. I think there is gonna be a reconciliation period that need to be done, maybe in parallel to what we have seen in South Africa. You cannot punish all the people involved in this prosecution of course, maybe the key people, the ranked leaders who run this prosecution just like in South Africa, and wrap this up and move forward.
Q: If thing go the way you want, would you like to go back to Turkey?
AK: Absolutely. That’s my country, I build a life there, my mother is there, my sisters..
Q: They are safe?
AK: Yes. My relatives are there. You know how Greeks and Turks how feel about families. They love to dying together, they love to come together, for several occasions, they want to spoil the grandkids, so that’s what I’m missing here in Sweden. And one day hopefully, when things go back to the normal, I’m hoping to go back to Turkey.
Q: Do you agree that Gulen has to speak before the referendum?
AK: It’s up to him of course to make that call but as a journalist I would say that’s a wrong move. Whatever he says is going to be turned around and manipulated by the Turkish media and the real message he would like to convey, will not be conveyed and communicated to the Turkish audience. It may make things worse. I would like him or any other on that matter just to say leave this event unfold nationally because whatever it gets said outside of Turkey they just distort the facts, because the media is now controlled by Erdogan and they describe these as a sort of intervention, conspiracy, and evidence of you know, Vatican, a Jewish conspiracy. So I don’t think that it’s a good idea for him or any other of the leading figures to speak before the referendum. It may complicate things.
WHO IS WHO
Mr. Abdullah Bozkurt, (46), journalist for over 20 years, is the president of Stockholm Center for Freedom (SCF), a monitoring group that tracks Turkey. He is the author of book titled: Turkey Interrupted: Democracy Derailed. He was the owner,founder and publisher of MuhabirAjans News Service, based in Ankara. He worked as the Bureau-in-Chief for Today’s Zaman, an English daily, in Turkish capital. He held the position of Executive Editor at the same newspaper for a while.
Mr. Bozkurt worked as the Bureau Chief in New York City covering the United Nations for the Turkish daily Zaman, one time the largest circulated paper in Turkey. He also served as Washington Representative for the paper, covering the State Department, Capitol Hill and Pentagon in the US capital.
Zaman was seized by the government on March 4 as part of escalating crackdown on the free and independent press in Turkey. Mr. Bozkurt was dismissed from his position after the government takeover. He went on to establish his own news service but that was shut down as well in July.
Fearing his life and imprisonment against the escalating crackdown on free media in Turkey, Mr. Bozkurt moved to Sweden in late July to live in a self-exile. He is freelancing as he leads the monitoring group SCF.
His Book, “Turkey Interrupted: Democracy Derailed” is not available in Turkey as it was collected and both distributor and bookstore companies were seized. The book is about democratic struggle of Turkey under repressive regime of Erdogan. It decodes Erdogan’s behavior on how goes about in sustaining his power. Exposes his corrupt system and Islamist network.
**The interview took place on April 1st, 2017. Editorship decided that it should be published after the referendum, so it would not be considered that there was an intervention to Turkish domestic issues.
more Links : http://www.bluedomepress.com/authors/detail/abdullah-bozkurt
